Monday, January 19, 2009

Seeing the other side's point of view, I

There are two sides to the conflict between the Israeli's and the
Palestinians. It is not simply that one group has all the right on its
side, and the other group has all the wrong on its side. Both group
have some of the right on their side, and both groups have part of the
wrong, and both are to various degrees to blame for the conflict.



Humans tend to have certain shortcomings when responding to a conflict,
particularly if they are close to it - they see in colour, but tend to
think in black and white. Situations are in many cases not so simple as
"good guys versus bad guys", but we often blinker ourselves and refuse
to look at a situation in its full complexity. I do not believe that a
proper solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict can be found unless
we all take the blinkers off, try to look at the situation from all
angles, understand the arguments on both sides (it is not necessary to
agree with a particular set of viewpoints, but at least make an effort
to understand these views) and engage in discussion.



I will play ``devil's advocate" to some extent on occasion, posting
viewpoints and comments, making comparisons with other situations, to
try to present aspects of the Israeli and Palestinian postions as I see
them in a way that makes it easier for outsiders to understand these
situations. Of course I do not expect everyone to agree with my
pronouncements, so I hope other people will add to our general
understanding by posting their own views as either comments in the
blog, or on the bulletin board. I will also post these statements on
the bulletin board (follow the link below), and the bulletin board may
be the better forum for discussion if a particular post provokes a
large number of responses. To start this off, two comparisons
with imaginary situations in Europe, to try to
present to outsiders the situations of both the
Israelis and the Palestinians as these groups
themselves might see their situation.



Imagine if it were the case with Belgium in Europe that all the other
countries in Europe - Britain, France, Spain, Germany, Italy, Portugal,
Holland, Ireland, Denmark, Norway, Poland, ... etc etc - wished
to destroy Belgium, had collectively waged a number of wars against
Belgium with exactly the aim of destroying Belgium, and all that
prevented them from succeeding was that Belgium had a powerful
military. This is the situation of Israel in the Arab world - the Arab
world would destroy Israel if it could, has tried to do so in the past,
and all that prevents them succeeding is the might of
the Israeli military. Imagine the life of the people of Belgium,
if they were to look around at all their neighbouring countries and all
of them wanted to destroy Belgium.



On the other hand, imagine if parts of Belgium were occupied by some
militarily powerful neighbouring country, say Germany, that Germany has
annexed parts of Belgium and claims that these parts are actually part
of its own territory, that it has been settling German citizens on
these annexed lands, that its long-term aim is to use military might to
force the people of Belgium to give up this territory to Germany, that
Germany and its allies say that Belgium has no right to resist this
annexation of their lands, that indeed Belgium has no rights whatever
and must accept the situation as laid down by Germany and that any kind
of resistance whatever makes them international criminals. This is the
situation of the Palestinians in relation to Israel.



Of course both these pictures are over-simplifications, but I believe
both accurately reflect to some extent certain aspects of the conflict.
Any opinions and differing views welcome. We probably would all benefit
from a greater understanding of how various people view this situation.



My own opinion is that the only viable solution is likely to be a two-state solution, but also that such a solution has to be fair, balanced and just, and has to treat the rights and freedoms of both the Israelis and Palestinians equally.

If you have comments or suggestions, please post a
comment in the blog, or on the bulletin board - see the link below.



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Board
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Remark: The posts relating to Northern Ireland are copies of documents
from the original Cothrom site from the late '90's/early 00's, and are
reproduced just to show what the original Cothrom site was like.

Cothrom 2009

Welcome to the new home of Cothrom in 2009, a website run by myself, James Mc Laughlin. On these pages I will try to promote a number of related ideas, revolving around social/racial/religious equality, fairness, justice and peace. Much of the violence and injustice in the world arises partly because some groups of people do not treat other groups of people as their equals as human beings, do not respect their rights as human beings and indeed treat them as less than human.


It seems to be part of human nature that many people tend to be polarised into opposing camps by conflict situations, supporting just one side, rather than making an effort to see both sides of the argument, seeing the rights and wrongs on both sides, and then somehow to arrive at a personal opinion as to where equality, fairness and justice lies in the situation, and then moving to support a fair, balanced, just solution to the problem that respects the rights and freedoms of both parties to the conflict equally.


I used to run a similar website in the '90's/early '00's that tried to promote a just, balanced, fair settlement to the conflict in Northern Ireland. I recently posted those old webpages on this blog - read the early posts on this blog to see what I was writing back then. I stopped writing on the old Cothrom website in the early '00's, when it seemed that Northern Ireland was starting to move towards stability. I had been been meaning to start the site up again for several months
now, mostly to air my thoughts about other world situations that bothered me. What finally prompted me to start again (mid January 2009) is the current situation between Israel and the Palestinian Territories, particularly the conflict in Gaza.



It is not that the situations in Northern Ireland and the Middle East are exact parallels, or maybe even closely similar - one immediate difference is that the problem was to find a way in
which the two communities could live together in the same state, whereas it would seem that the challenge facing the Israelis and the Palestinians is to find a way in which an Israeli state and a Palestinian state can live side-by-side.


One parallel that I see with Northern Ireland in the early days of that conflict, is that it would seem, at least on the surface, that many people on each side see only their own point of view. Of course this is not to say that all Israelis or all Palestinians think this way. Indeed I believe most in both populations would support a just, balanced and fair solution if one were on offer. Another parallel that I see is that I do not believe that there will be peace there until a majority on both sides accept the need for a settlement that is essentially just, balanced and fair..




In the next few weeks, I will be posting my thoughts on how to see each sides point of view, what is a just settlement and so on. I will be creating a bulletin board so other people can post their views also. I will also be posting on other topics as they occur to me.


If you have comments or suggestions, please post a
comment in the blog, or on the bulletin board - see the link below.


Visit the Cothrom Bulletin
Board
View my Message Board

Free Forums by
Bravenet.com

Sign My Guestbook below

Sign my Guestbook from Bravenet.com Get your Free Guestbook from Bravenet.com




Remark: The posts relating to Northern Ireland are copies of documents from the original Cothrom site from the late '90's/early 00's, and are reproduced just to show what the original Cothrom site was like.

Saturday, January 17, 2009

END OF OLD POSTS

OK, THATS THE END OF THE OLD POSTS, WHERE I REPOSTED ALL THE DOCUMENTS FROM THE OLD COTHROM WEBSITE.

HOPEFULLY THE TOTALITY OF THESE OLD POSTS WILL GIVE SOME IDEA HOW I THINK ABOUT ISSUES.

THERE WILL BE NEW POSTS IN THE COMING DAYS ABOUT RECENT ISSUES SUCH AS GAZA, AND OTHER SITUATIONS.



Visit the Cothrom Bulletin Board

View my Message Board

Free Forums by Bravenet.com

Sign My Guestbook below



Sign my Guestbook from Bravenet.com
 Get your Free Guestbook from Bravenet.com

Thursday, January 15, 2009

Cothrom Guestbook


Remarks: These pages were originally created in the '90's, so some of the links are long dead (and the group or organization may no longer exist), but I am leaving the page as was just to give an idea how it used to be.

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Thank you for visiting the Cothrom pages. I would like to hear what you think of the Cothrom site, what I could do to improve it etc. I have added this guestbook so that people can comment on Cothrom and the Cothrom site.The bulletin board remains as a forum for discussing peace and politics. All comments/advice welcome but not necessarily acted upon/listened to! I hope you will Add to this guestbook!

This is a very good page as it gives the time as well as the date of a posting. We should use it more.RicN Ireland, UK - Sunday, June 15, 1997 at 10:27:52 (CDT)

Hello Joey - I was just testing to see if there was anyone out there as this page seems to somewhat underused. Want to debate?RicN Ireland, UK - Sunday, June 15, 1997 at 10:21:01 (CDT)

Cool! Ric, and you say leo/surfer posts inane pointless stuff over bulletin boards and guest books.Joey (the Angel) <joey_the_angel_@hotmail.com>Sydney, NSW Australia - Friday, June 13, 1997 at 01:31:06 (CDT)

Hello everybody!!RicN Ireland, UK - Monday, June 09, 1997 at 17:10:43 (CDT)
Well done to this site, the documents on the way forward and each groups position are clear and easily understood. Hope this unusual state of affairs keeps going instead of the usual fire-breathing! Good luck!Robbie Cole <cm4bcrkc@bs41,staffs.ac.uk>Stuttgart, Germany - Wednesday, May 21, 1997 at 07:34:46 (CDT)

This board is a disgrace and everyone who has signed this guestbook with the exception of the IAC, is totally nuts. The only one with any common sense or realistic and creative ideas thus far, has been Colleen Malone. As for Bill Cooke well the word SCARY.....REALLY REALLY SCARY comes to mind. To think that there is actually someone like this walking the streets of Baltimore or maybe even attending an Orioles game is just beyond belief let alone safe. I for one say thank you very much to Loyola University for sticking it to him with parking tickets and would encourage Loyola to keep up the good work. We need more Universities like this one; in fact, why bother to ticket him, next time tow him. Now Bill O'Brien..... well the words DoDo bird springs to mind... ..."related to the pigeons but larger than a turkey". Honk Honk!!!! Irish American Coalition <Anywhere>Somewhere, AL USA - Monday, April 28, 1997 at 16:06:04 (CDT)

i really like the bitchin board jim.leo corcoran,the silver surfer <last chance saloon>glasgow, scottish republic - Friday, April 18, 1997 at 08:18:25 (CDT)

I welcome any effort to identify the ludicous situation where Irishmen kill Irishmen for the sake of an island called Ireland. Anyone would think the Russians had landedO`NeillBallymena, ULSTER - Wednesday, April 09, 1997 at 18:25:44 (CDT)

My first visit, and will reserve my comments until I have more exposure. However it is a great idea and I only hope it will be used and assimilated in a mature manner for purposes of education and understading.William Farrell Heatley <BINO2731@AOL.com>Clarkston, Mi USA - Wednesday, April 02, 1997 at 20:47:13 (CST)

It would appear that you have a bunch of looneys on theis BB. No one has anything realistic to say. You should purge some of these people starting with colleen.David O'Brien <obrien1@earthlink.net>Derry, NH USA - Monday, March 31, 1997 at 15:09:44 (CST)

I think that you have a wonderful site that I have learned much from. Keep up the good work! Slan, MairinMairin <kiernans.leprechawn@usa.net>CT USA - Wednesday, March 26, 1997 at 12:44:33 (CST)

Someone told me that there was a death threat against me on this board so I came back to see that he was right. Only two days again someone left another threat on the IRA board, except this time it was against the President. I get a lot of hate mail and occassional threats such as this. So, I would urge whoever is making such threats to stop this instant unless you force me to file civil and criminal charges. I could do that now, but frankly I have better things to do. But if this continues you will leave be no choice. Bill Cooke <falkland@bayserve.net>Baltimore, MD USA - Tuesday, March 25, 1997 at 09:50:43 (CST)

Because I will surely receive harassment from Jennifer Furey on this board this will be my only post here. I noticed that nobody has posted to the other board since I started my self-imposed exile. Jimmy can thank Jenny for that. I wish that I could say what I really thought of her, but that would not be right. Instead, I pray that she will leave me alone!!!!Bill Cooke <falkland@Bayserve.net>Baltimore, MD USA - Monday, March 24, 1997 at 15:50:18 (CST)

Great site. Wish you could set up one of those programs to prevent children fouling it up with obscene language, guestures and pictures. I believe there is a great potential for civilized debate without the five year olds.Ian Baxter <ibaxter@swbell.net>Portadown, Co.Armagh Northern Ireland - Monday, March 24, 1997 at 13:52:54 (CST)

Jimmy, you've managed that rarest of things--a well-balanced site on the war in Ireland. For that you are to be commended. Thanks for your hard work and open attitude. Slán, JenniferJennifer Furey <stlouisina@hotmail.com>St. Louis, MO USA - Monday, March 24, 1997 at 11:20:27 (CST)

jimmy,this is,another,excellent idea.you deserve apat on the back.keep up the good workthe silver surferglasgow, scottish republic - Monday, March 24, 1997 at 03:00:59 (CST)

I have seen both good and bad on this BB and so therein it serves the purpose. Jimmy I like you have some revolutionary views on the subject of the north of Ireland. It is great to see a place where people can present them! luck now!Brollachaen O'CaepuilVancouver, BC CANADA - Sunday, March 23, 1997 at 20:38:20 (CST)

Jimmy: Thanks for another interesting point of view with the Cothrom site. It - has - been - interesting to say the least! Barbara G. Barbara <bravo@centuryinter.net>USA - Sunday, March 23, 1997 at 19:04:43 (CST)

Jimmy, You're developing a great site here. I hope visitors to your site will take time to read over some of your thought-provoking documents; you present some very interesting points of view on the issues surrounding Ireland. Best of luck to you and Cothrom!TrishUSA - Saturday, March 22, 1997 at 22:56:00 (CST)

Somebody has to start this off.Jimmy Mc Laughlin(Cothrom) <jgmclaug@math.uiuc.edu>Urbana, IL USA - Saturday, March 22, 1997 at 14:43:20 (CST)

Scripts and Guestbook created by Matt Wright and can be found at Matt's Script Archive

Other Cothrom Documents
Back to cothrom Homepage

Note: All pf these Cothrom pages that relate to Northern Ireland were originally created at the end of the '90's/early 00's.

The other Northern Ireland (give your head a much needed rest and get away from Politics)

Remarks: These pages were originally created in the '90's, so some of the links are long dead (and the group or organization may no longer exist), but I am leaving the page as was just to give an idea how it used to be.

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On this page I hope to provide links to non-political pages in Northern Ireland - pages dealing with sports, music, night-life, hobbies and pastimes, personal homepages etc.I hope people enjoy them.Here again if anyone knows of sites that would fit in here let me know about them.

Shopping
Products of Northern Ireland (PONi-) Express

Sport
Golf Course Directory
Northern Ireland Biker
Northern Ireland Ice Skating Association
Northern Ireland Motor sport

A Holiday in N.Ireland?
Northern Ireland Tourist Board

Clubs/Societies
Northern Ireland Bonsai Society
Northern Ireland Model Car Club

Web Magazines
Infosite - Whatson
Kool Magazine

Pubs and Clubs
Northern Ireland Pub Guide

General Information
Nidex-The Northern Ireland Index
Northern Ireland Global Gateway
Belfast Net

Various
Parallel Worlds

Homepages
Direct Net @ccess - customers on the web

Other Cothrom Documents
Back to cothrom Homepage

Note: All pf these Cothrom pages that relate to Northern Ireland were originally created at the end of the '90's/early 00's.

Odds and Ends

Remarks: These pages were originally created in the '90's, so some of the links are long dead (and the group or organization may no longer exist), but I am leaving the page as was just to give an idea how it used to be.

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Political Wall Murals in Northern Ireland
If you feel there are any other links that should be included here let me know about them.

This page is still in the early stages of construction. Keep an eye out for further developments.

Other Cothrom Documents
Back to cothrom Homepage

Note: All pf these Cothrom pages that relate to Northern Ireland were originally created at the end of the '90's/early 00's.

What's New (last up-dated 5th - apr - 1998)

Remarks: These pages were originally created in the '90's, so some of the links are long dead (and the group or organization may no longer exist), but I am leaving the page as was just to give an idea how it used to be.

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Cothrom
A final Settlement within Reach? (5th - apr - 1998)
The Need for BALANCED constitutional change (19th - mar- 1998)
Will the parties ever get down to the nitty-gritty? (13th - feb - 1998)
Time to grasp the nettles......?
The long and winding road

Peace Groups
Irish Peace Institute Research Centre
Peace in The North of Ireland

Some important documents/statements
Report of the Independent Review of Parades & Marches Summary:(from The Belfast Telegraph)
The Irish Constitution (in full)

Discussion Boards/Mailing Lists
Internet All Person Talks - Archive
Irish Mailing Lists/Listserves

News / Information Sources
The Derry/Londonderry Gateway
Ireland History Archive
Irish-American Information Service
Irish History
Irish Internet Hub
Northern Ireland Public Service Web - Index by organisation/Place

Other Links
American Ireland Education Foundation (PEC)
Australian Aid for Ireland
Battle of the Boyne Day Pages
Cain Project
The Irish American Lobby
Irish Republican Web Committee
Irish Universities Loyal Orange Lodge No.369
Prison Campaigns
Stop the deportations
Stop the extraditions and deportations
The Ulster/Orange/Unionist Songbook
Ulster Project of Central Pennsylvania
United Irish Organizations of Nebraska (UNION)
Westwind Communications :- Ireland

Odds and Ends
Political Wall Murals in Northern Ireland

Other Cothrom Documents
Back to cothrom Homepage

Note: All pf these Cothrom pages that relate to Northern Ireland were originally created at the end of the '90's/early 00's.